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Mojoco
01-10-12, 09:16 AM
The proposed new service, called direct.uk, is aimed at businesses and would potentially offer shorter domain names registered at the second level (i.e. www.yourbusiness.uk) as well as one of the most comprehensive package of security features available.

http://www.nominet.org.uk/news/latest/consultation-new-uk-domain-name-service

I seem to remember at some point in the past Nominet giving assurances that this would never happen.

aZooZa
01-10-12, 09:36 AM
I'm out in Xiangtan City eating moon cake right now but surely I'm reading this wrong?

Edwin
01-10-12, 09:46 AM
You're not reading it wrong. It's worth taking the time to go through the proposal slowly and meticulously to see the full extent of what they're suggesting, then to formulate a calm, reasoned, logical, methodical counter-proposal (it WILL be a counter-proposal when you read all the details!)

I posted the below on Acorn and it definitely bears repeating so I've copied it across here...

I have just spent 90 minutes providing detailed feedback to every single question that gave the option of a response. If you have an opinion on the matter I'd advise you to do likewise, and to take the time to structure a measured, logical argument (no matter what case or point of view you're trying to put across) as this data will be collated and your responses could be excerpted in the public record.

I will not be drawn on what I wrote, because I believe the very last thing we need is for there to be any perception of "survey knobbling" i.e. for a bunch of similar responses to be received from one particular cohort (domainers) thereby tainting the perceived validity of all responses. But it shouldn't take much imagination to guess what I wrote, if you've followed any of the discussions over the years!

Indeed, I'd strongly urge that nobody discuss specifics too closely to avoid accidentally creating this "ganging up" impression and thereby weakening all our voices...

Mojoco
01-10-12, 10:13 AM
Edwin, do you recall Nominet ever giving an assurance in the past that this would not happen ?

Edwin
01-10-12, 10:16 AM
Edwin, do you recall Nominet ever giving an assurance in the past that this would not happen ?

Not in print, no. But they did on many occasions one-on-one when I was chatting with them. Although "never" is a long time - it was always couched as "no current plans" or similar.

Incidentally, there is a wealth of background information (page after page after page) provided as part of the survey process itself, but this is clearly only going to become apparent if you TAKE the survey! Each section has a lengthy introduction (expanding greatly on the very sketchy summary in the video) and there is more detail in the intro to some questions and in the answers that are suggested for multiple-selection questions. Thus, the only way to be fully informed about what the proposals consist of is to take the survey!

BTW, please don't make the mistake of assuming they're going to proceed in what dispassionate third parties would assume is the most logical way. If you read the whole thing, every question and answer, there are many suggestions that are counter-intuitive to the current and future commercial and other vested interests of existing .co.uk name holders. Basically (and not to pre-empt what Nominet explain at length) there are situations where the "winner" would be the Johnny come latelies who use .uk names vs all the "fools" (my word NOT theirs) who have spent 20 years and countless billions branding themselves on .co.uk.

Mojoco
01-10-12, 10:31 AM
Perhaps this is partly the reason that I have been seeing Nominet in my log files recently.

Are they collecting data to confirm if a domain is being used commercially, or made good use of ? So that when you apply for a .uk in the sunshine phase they will know the existing usage of your corresponding .co.uk.

Edwin
01-10-12, 10:32 AM
Are they collecting data to confirm if a domain is being used commercially, or made good use of ? So that when you apply for a .uk in the sunshine phase they will know the existing usage of your corresponding .co.uk.

That is one of the things in the survey, yes. But I don't want to pre-empt the lengthy and comprehensive explanation they give with a one sentence answer. So please read it for yourself (and that goes for everyone reading this thread!)

Mojoco
01-10-12, 01:13 PM
I'll set aside some time to read thoroughly and respond.

Edwin
01-10-12, 01:42 PM
My apologies - it IS possible to see the full proposal without messing around with the online survey, if you look at the "paper" (i.e. PDF) version...
http://www.nominet.org.uk/sites/default/files/Nominet_FINAL_electronic_form1.pdf

GreyWing
01-10-12, 01:51 PM
Doesn't matter what happens, this kind of speculation has put the .uk market is in limbo for the next 4-5 months till this reports. I'm not going to be buying anything in the next 4-5 months that is for sure.

If this gets anywhere close to becoming reality in its proposed form then I would imagine a EGM being called and the removal of the board, this could be that serious.

Edwin
01-10-12, 01:56 PM
I don't see how it affects end-user sales? Not much, anyway. Before they had exactly 1 "serious" choice. If this goes ahead, they will have 1 or 2 "serious" choices (it's impossible to imagine .co.uk itself becoming insignificant given all the inertia of countless millions of businesses having to "rebrand"). And most/all niches have more than 2 companies in them... But it's definitely a bit of a mess. Hard to see how it CAN go ahead in its currently proposed form, but that's not the same as being certain it won't.

What it does signal is the final nail in the coffin for .org.uk being a remotely viable alternative.

GreyWing
01-10-12, 02:07 PM
Indeed mate, Nominet have a history that would make the EU's view on referendums look democratic. Don't vote the way we want, fine we'll tweak it a little and vote again and again and again until the the right answer comes back.

This will happen in some form..

Looks like Nominet got a taste for auctioning off domains and going back to the well for another drink. One good thing is that Sedo hold a lot of .uk's and won't want to see their portfolio ditched into the sea, might be good that they are on the board.

Mojoco
01-10-12, 02:14 PM
If this goes through, .org.uk's will be dropping like flies along with many .co.uk's, because in many cases it will potentially be no longer viable to hold anything less than top tier domains, as they will have lost their "uniqueness".

Which in turn could make it a somewhat pointless exercise for Nominet.

atlas
01-10-12, 02:18 PM
I would think cash flow issues would dampen the market for a while. Even if Nominet ends up giving .co.uk domain holders first dibs at .uk domains, at £20 per pop, that's £20,000 for a portfolio of 1000 domains - something that would need to be budgeted for in advance. If there are auctions between say .co.uk and .org.uk holders, then the cost could be much higher than £20 a pop.

GreyWing
01-10-12, 02:24 PM
Jeff, by the looks of it you wouldn't be allowed to bid because you aren't uk based.

How do you feel? Need I ask?

atlas
01-10-12, 02:35 PM
Jeff, by the looks of it you wouldn't be allowed to bid because you aren't uk based.

How do you feel? Need I ask?

Yes, I saw that too! Thanks for bringing up the issue. Obviously, I think that's a real step backwards. The trend in cctlds has been to liberalise residency requirements. I would like to think that this requirement would be dropped just because so many international companies own .co.uk domains. E.g. Google.co.uk is registered to Google in the US - imagine if they could not obtain Google.uk. Even on a smaller level - say a mum & pop operation in Ireland wanted to expand into the UK - they would be barred from buying their relevant .uk domain, which makes no sense.

Mojoco
01-10-12, 03:06 PM
I copied this from Acorn but assume it has been copied directly from Nominet.....

"A staged release process for the domains, with registered rights holders’ applications considered in the first phase, then unregistered rights holders. All those using existing .co.uk, .org.uk etc domain names would be granted unregistered rights under the proposed plans. "

What constitutes using a domain ?

I'd say its time to start getting sites built on major domain assets.

GreyWing
01-10-12, 03:07 PM
Those people who have just paid out in the previous LL.co.uk must be peeing their pants. Took to the cleaners by Nominet..... Not to worry they might get the chance to bid in another auction to buy the LL.uk version. How happy they must be... Luckily though the people that will be most hurt by all this have the most money. That is something Nominet have not come up across before when proposing things like this.

Jeff, so you won't be buying anything in the next 5-6 months either then?

invincible
01-10-12, 03:09 PM
I think one just needs to have a UK address which is easily obtainable for a small recurring fee from numerous entities. Therefore I feel that the requirement to have a UK address in order to register a {example}.uk is a weak one. Short of someone from Nominet, or their authorised agent, personally visiting the address and meeting the registrant there, it seems to be an exercise that can be worked around by someone spending a little more time obtaining mail forwarding. This partially reminds me of the failure of the initial .pro third level gTLDs.

In respect of the requirement to operate a {example}.uk with DNS SEC I can see some sense in trying to push this technology if it is proven. However anyone can get DNS SEC on their .co.uk right now if they wish. It wouldn't be difficult for a .uk registrar to provide a service whereby they would offer to support a registrant getting their existing .co.uk domain names DNS SEC compliant.

In respect of putting a "badge" on the web site suggesting compliance,I feel anyone could duplicate that. A graphic shouldn't infer security if it can be copied.

Most people probably like the idea of shorter domain names. If the equivalent {example}.uk were offered free to each existing .co.uk registrant I am sure there would be a high level of take up. The roots of this project probably stem from Nominet itself worrying that it will stay relevant. The company has already branched out into other areas, such as providing new gTLD consultancy services, and I suspect that simply maintaining the status quo might be seen there as not doing enough. I wonder if management feel that they need to appear to be moving with the times by offering to open up {example}.uk with extra benefits in the face of potential new gTLDs. How much of this is about self preservation is something to consider.

GreyWing
01-10-12, 03:10 PM
I have just posted on the Nominet members forum, not specifically about the proposal but more the fact they are going to taking 4-5 months to come to the next level of consultation.

https://forum.nominet.org.uk/

"Does it really have to take over 3-4 months to allow for submissions on the proposed .uk extension.

Apart from the specifics of the proposal, I have shelved all of my development plans for my current names and postponed several partnerships on the back of this until we know what is happening.

The best thing about the Nominet was the stability of the platform, for the first time I can't say that I know what is going on.

Even the proposal is causing confusion and alarm. 4-5 months of this is not in anyone's interests. The main problem is that there is no hint about what rights .co.uk .org.uk holders will have in brand protection."

Mojoco
01-10-12, 03:47 PM
If your domains are registered to an address outside the UK, it would make sense to change your whois record to a UK accommodation address in the event that you need / wish to apply for the .uk of your domain/s.

GreyWing
01-10-12, 04:02 PM
These seem to be the proposed method for rights holders etc when releasing the new names.... Phase 1 and phase 2 seem to be the wrong way round and will lead to confusion.

K: Page 13

http://www.nominet.org.uk/sites/default/files/Nominet_FINAL_electronic_form1.pdf

1) Trademark holders
2) domain holders if they were being used before 2 months prior to today
3) Landrus
4) General Availabilty

GreyWing
01-10-12, 04:09 PM
Basically you can lose your domain name if there is a trademark on here, even if it is just a logo http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tm/t-find/t-find-text/tmtsearch-default.aspx

This has happened before where a domain has contacted the owner of a TM logo and bought it from them, then made a claim against a domain and won it. Very worrying is phase 1 and phase 2 are in this order.

Worrying as well that there is no indication or primacy for .co.uk over .org.uk or .me.uk

Mojoco
01-10-12, 04:15 PM
These seem to be the proposed method for rights holders etc when releasing the new names.... Phase 1 and phase 2 seem to be the wrong way round and will lead to confusion.

K: Page 13

http://www.nominet.org.uk/sites/default/files/Nominet_FINAL_electronic_form1.pdf

1) Trademark holders
2) domain holders if they were being used before 2 months prior to today
3) Landrus
4) General Availabilty

It's a concern that if you have had a domain on the backburner and decide now is a good time to do start development. You will have no rights to the new name unless you started development at least two months ago.

Also what is deemed valid use. Is parking a domain valid use if this is your business model. What if you only use a domain for email, is that valid use ?

invincible
01-10-12, 07:04 PM
Scenario: registrant has held {something}.co.uk for 10 years. Someone else has held a registered TM on the same {something} for 2 years. Both want {something}.uk. Who gets it and why?

GreyWing
01-10-12, 07:06 PM
Remember guys a TM can be as something daft as a logo

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/ohim?ohimnum=E9571019

I could have been usurped for hgv.co.uk because of that logo. So it doesn't have to be a TM like most of you would understand it.

invincible
01-10-12, 07:48 PM
Remember guys a TM can be as something daft as a logo

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/ohim?ohimnum=E9571019

I could have been usurped for hgv.co.uk because of that logo. So it doesn't have to be a TM like most of you would understand it.

Yes. DW (device + word) TM's can be easy to obtain. I'd be disgusted if one of those, particularly one registered recently, got priority over a domain name with registration history.

getmein
01-10-12, 08:33 PM
The more I think about it, the more unanswered questions and scenarios I can think of, which would each require a framework to resolve. Added to which, when someone says it's not 'a money making exercise' my gut response is, that's exactly what it is.

- What is 'evidence of use'. I see lots of premium domains that don't resolve, surely it's a registrants right to use/not use a domain. Yet this 'usage test' whatever it might comprise of, potentially prejudices a registrants ability to claim unregistered rights during the sunrise.
- Where you have different parties holding both the .co.uk and .org.uk of a domain - will each .uk domain be auctioned?
- Assuming both the registered and unregistered rights sunrises need independent verification, does nominet understand the potential scale of this process with thousands and thousands of applications to be processed? How much will it cost?
- Given some of the technical issues involved in selling off the short domains, does nominet really believe it could successfully run auctions for all of these domains?
- Depending on the take up of domains during the sunrise there will presumably be a another huge tranche of auctions subject to more than one bid during the landrush. Again, I think that nominet have misunderestimated (sic) both the scale and complications of running this many potentially simultaneous auctions.

Assuming the new namespace becomes successful - have they considered the future volume of DRS cases that will be brought by holders of existing .co.uk and .org.uk domains who decided not to take up their rights.

I'm still formulating my view on whether .uk works. The success of the .co.uk namespace has been created primarily by the users of the .co.uk namespace - my current gut feeling is the release of .uk won't add sufficient diversity to the the UK internet relative to the problems the allocation of the domains will create.

grantw
01-10-12, 09:30 PM
Added to which, when someone says it's not 'a money making exercise' my gut response is, that's exactly what it is.

Everything they do these days seems to be about money. They're supposed to be operating on a cost recovery basis yet have to give £millions of profits away to a trust every year, and then they're still charging £10 + Vat for an automated domain transfer, something someone mentioned would be looked at once the cost of developing the transfer system had been recovered. Expensive system!!!!!

As for the main topic, I'm totally flabbergasted! My business interests aside, this announcement will cause confusion for regular folk thinking about buying a .co.uk domain and the whole 'security' angle gives the impression that existing .uk extensions are not secure. And to suggest that TM holders should have precedence over existing registrants shows a total lack of care/respect for existing stakeholders.

If it goes through it's going to be very messy and confusing for everyone, if it doesn't will people be wary of the extension in case Nominet decide to try again in the future!

Almost every comment I've read on news sites has been negative towards the proposal, let's hope that translates over to the consultation and Nominet actually listen to the responses rather than brush them aside and go ahead with it anyway - I won't hold my breath!

Grant

SimonDooner
01-10-12, 09:34 PM
It will be interesting to see how things like this get resolved!

Cruise.co.uk v Cruise (Registered Trade Mark 2541643)
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/domestic?domesticnum=2541643

As the song goes… “there maybe trouble ahead”

getmein
01-10-12, 10:08 PM
Everything they do these days seems to be about money.

Absolutely - I wonder what the real costs of providing these various 'security' features are? I think they've looked at what they consider to be the potential pricing power of the gTLDs and decided they want some of the premium registration fee action. They only need to get a small percentage of .co.uk/org.uk registrants to buy the corresponding .uk domains and they've doubled their registration fee income (minus whatever cost of providing their address verification, malware scanning and dnssec - all of which I'd consider to be minimal). Application fees, auction fees etc are just a one-off bonus.

As far as the 'security' features are concerned, malware scanning is already present in some browsers - not sure what dnssec does - but in a world where people send money to strangers as a result of spam emails from 419 scammers, this isn't the panacea they are making it out to be. The address verification system also isn't fool proof - anyone who has nefarious intentions, is likely to do whatever is required to get a .uk domain if it confers trust benefits - indeed the supposed trust element might actually make users less vigilant when using a .uk, to their very real danger. I'm sure they've got a few fake/scam websites operating on .co.uk at the moment - if they can't keep one registry clean, what makes them think they'll be able to do so with .uk.

Eleanor Bradley says in the video that the other benefit of a new namespace is that it gives a chance for all the new businesses entering the internet space to 'have a suitable domain name, that reflects their business'. I think she is mistaken and naive where the name they'd like to reflect their business is a generic term. Premium generics will likely be purchased by existing registrants or domainers. Other businesses, may seek to buy their .uk domain simply as a blocking registration (where again, the only benefit is to the registry and whoever they buy the domain through).

Edwin
01-10-12, 10:34 PM
There is also the problem that people (in general) completely fail to understand odds (which is why the lottery is so popular) so many people will think "now I have a chance at the .uk name I want" whereas in reality their chance of getting it went from 0.00% to perhaps 0.01% at best.

GreyWing
01-10-12, 11:21 PM
I have posted this up to propose a EGM over this, would be grateful if members who agreed with calling an EGM registered their interest on the form for us to get a view of the numbers and if it is possible. We need 5% of members votes to be able to call one.

http://www.that.co.uk/that-blog/call-for-an-egm-at-nominet.html#mid_168

GreyWing
02-10-12, 11:40 AM
Update: 42 signatures calling for EGM since last night, some of whom I have never heard of and don't think they are domainers.

hamadi
10-10-12, 10:34 PM
Does this mean .co.uk will be valued less

GreyWing
10-10-12, 11:57 PM
That is just one of the outcomes of this, other outcomes would be brand confusion, loss of business, loss of confidence in the .uk brand as a whole, legal battles, cyber squatting, not to mention UK businesses paying huge fees to keep their access to the UK business level extension

There are several different downsides and very few if any up sides.

Mojoco
17-10-12, 01:29 PM
This was raised at Acorn and is used in Nominets own words:

Search for gov.co.uk


Error for "gov.co.uk".

This domain cannot be registered because it contravenes the Nominet UK
naming rules. The reason is:
third-level domains may not be identical to a UK second-level domain.

WHOIS lookup made at 12:23:55 17-Oct-2012

http://www.nominet.org.uk/whois/lookup?query=gov.co.uk

It seems their "rules" apply as and when it suits Nominet.